/r/Christianity is a subreddit to discuss Christianity and aspects of Christian life. My only reason for defending Calvinism here is because I want the focus not to be on Soteriology, but on fighting abuse. Dee blast from the past! Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God. Being able to truly believe that God predestined us for salvation, but never for damnation. I guess Im not explaining myself very well here, because all this is not to say I think theology is a bad thing. G. Campbell Morgan 16. @ JeffB: There is one more point that I do want to make, though. To be honest most of the people who Ive bumped into that come across as dogmatic Calvinist are really regurgitating talking points. Since Jeff S is a nice Calvinist, may I continue to be a mean one? thurgood marshall school of law apparel Projetos; bubble buster 2048 town Blog; cell defense the plasma membrane answer key step 13 Quem somos; how to make a good elder scrolls: legends deck Contato; Maybe I need to learn how to live with it better. We might refer instead to TULIP as a doctrinal stance. I looked into becoming a Calvinist years ago but did not see it in the Scripture, and I tried hard to do so. Unfortunately, to some, that means I may not even be a Christian. Systematic theology books are plentiful. Reformed theology celebrates the glory of God. Notwithstanding, non-Calvinist Bible commentaries have largely become marginalized in our present day, with large Christian book publishers simply refusing to print them. I wont go into all of them. From accuracy to portability, that #1 pick beat nearly every other model in our lineup for every metric. Have you forgotten his evangelism tours where there were great multitudes of rebaptisms? But, dee, how can any of us answer the deeper questions without Scripture? Arguing these issues sends me down the crazy cycle of shame, pain, abandonment, God not hearing me, etc. @ JeffB: I believe in Penal Substitutionary Atonement. Im not saying that her description is completely off, but its far from the God of Scripture. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. In general, my beliefs do align with RC Sproul. John Calvin, French Jean Calvin or Jean Cauvin, (born July 10, 1509, Noyon, Picardy, Francedied May 27, 1564, Geneva, Switzerland), theologian and ecclesiastical statesman. Ever. It was populated by extremely insecure . 3:1-2) is saying that their are parts of the Word that are more elementary than others, not that those parts are any less important. The guy wearing glasses in the video gave an interesting explanation, though he chose to use the Fall in the Garden, rather than a more contemporary example. The simple interpretation of total depravity is this: because you are human (totally), you are perpetually and inexorably morally corrupt, and the only way you can understand any truth is if God functionally does it for you via the doctrine of arbitrary election. (LogOut/ Such arrogance!! If the Bible is Gods Word, and we are capable of understanding it, where else can we go to answer the deeper questions except to ourselves? External Leaders When members begin to question the fidelity of their pastor's teaching, they rarely (regrettably) go to their pastor. So, in that manner, I have some suggestion on how to view Calvinists as a non-Calvinist. He got into this thing about to truly let someone have free will, not only do you have to permit them to disobey / do evil, but there has to be an opportunity to do good, too. I think that this is the reason why, in some cases (not including anyone in the present discussion), that a robust discussion is not possible. Grabs your hand and raises your arm & enthusiastically shows you off as The winner and still the champ! Feels your joy with you. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life.. (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell?? It stopped making sense when God began to show me in many profound ways that He loves me. 5) Likewise, everything we do for others should NOT be because we love them, but to bring glory to God. If you read it, you will most likely have a heart attack. Does that make me not a Calvinist? you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. It is entirely congregationally driven, so the church votes on pastors, and votes on board members (elders), not the other way around. A secondary cause is always subservient to the primary cause, which is God. I DO think that Calvinism is misconstrued a lot by people in this position, but either way its not a good time or place to try and correct them. "Eastview Christian Church pastor, Mike Baker, resigns after son, Caleb Baker, is fired from Central Christian Church for adultery" Why? Of course, they mean the local church that thinks like them. every denomination that isn't explicitly Calvinist: all of them except Presbyterians and Reformed every denomination that is explicitly non-Calvinist: Methodists, Pentecostals, Adventists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox Prof_Acorn 2 yr. ago And to be honest, using the TULIP definition of calvinist, Id have to say Im a 2 point calvinist (I believe in the perseverence of the saints, and total depravity if it means every aspect of our nature has been marred by sin.) The theology is weak. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). He said he found comfort from it. I had no intention of saying that non Calvinists read the scriptures to suit their own fancy. I intended to contrast believers (Cal and non-Cal) who base their opinions on their reading of Scripture, and believers (Cal and non-Cal) who base their opinions on their own counsel, on what they *feel* is true. And heres 2400+ pages of PROOF! And would appeal to organization freaks with OCD who crave To Be Absolutely Right? Although I had been churched, I had rarely opened my Bible. Many of us had grown up in non-Christian households and did not know many Christians. And, for that matter, why is his style so difficult? When I first discovered Reformed theology, I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary. The title suggests hes going to argue that something I dont agree with and Cavlinists historically do not believe is false. However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). As in I Got It Right! To insist on it is to cling to an inadequate, incorrect understanding of God, IMO. whose beliefs have little to do with either Calvin or Arminius. There is a new evangelism taking place. Breastmilk tested at 1 year postpartum is different than breastmilk at 6 months postpartum, etc. I am not saying that Calvinists are going to hell or anything radical like that. To how many times I felt unsure and afraid & indeed crashed and burned big time in front of people. It bothered me a whole lot (and she and I talked about it via email), but it also crystallized some things for me. Philosophers (not necessarily Christian ones) have wrestled with these questions for thousands of years without any real answers. My bet would be that some (many?) On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. . That is why I do not now, nor will I ever, follow a man. A stupendously important point, Jeff. What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian.. @dee, Sproul Steve Lawson Voddie Bachham Wayne Grudem People Guilty Of Greatly Spreading The False "Free Will" Gospel: Bill Bright Billy Graham Charles Finney I was a Jesus Movement convert, too in 1972. When we hold to a law or principle that we think makes us better Christians but instead, causes existential damage to others, then something about that law/principle is awry and needs thorough reconstruction. They cant seem to express their experience and pain without having a conversation with some authentic Calvinist/Reformer/Tulip believer (Whatever that means. I shall ask our readers to ray for him at the top of the home page. This contradictory appeal to both mystery and sound orthodoxy allows then to move the doctrinal yardstick back and forth on any whim or fancy because all they have to do is remind us all that there isnt any real way we can ever know for sure, so we might as well simply agree with them so as not to cause an unpleasant ruckus and create division or risk hurting feelings or whatever other obstacle to real debate they can think up. I know. Bring them to heaven? whats wrong with mess anyway? Also, not all Calvinists are believe in particular pre-destination that is, not all Calvinists believe God causes everything, there are degrees from some just view salvation as pre-destined, to others believing you are reading this because God ordained it from the beginning, so Pipers view of tornadoes is not universally agreed on by Calvinists. @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? Association of Related Churches I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. . Even if we say we agree in the fundamentals/indisputables Calvinism makes it clear, and both Jeffs have admitted, that there is no human agency capable of understanding truth fully. * Okay, end of sermon. That means you should be able to find other believers who view the faith as you do. There are Christians who remain Christian, who believe in Christ, without seeing Calvinism supported in the Bible. However, he presentedOlson as a man of good will. However, Brian (a Calvinist) brought up a new topic and I decided since there was so much dialogue, I could easily keep the debate to one thread. And those of us who see the logical cause and effect of Calvinism-to-abuse are against Calvinism because we dont WANT the powers that be to be the power any more. Never once did I hear the word Calvin. @ JeffB: I hadnt thought of it that way. Again, this idea that humans had no will to act is not something that the WCF, RC Sproul, or any Calvinist I know believes. whats so complicated about that? There are anti-Calvinists with websites who have examples, quotes taken from books by pro-Calvinists where the pro-C equates Cal to the Gospel itself, their point being to hint that anyone not embracing Cal is not a Christian, then you have the Cals who come right out and say it. That also struck me and started me thinking. In response to the devastation of a hurricane: @JohnPiper: Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.Job 1:19 Thanks. @ Jeff S: No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. They are his laws; they are not independent in nature. You should see some of the other ixtian blogs. people who call themselves Calvinist have never really read Calvin. Just happy to be able to trust that God really is good again. Because truth that doesnt work in the grey isnt really truth. Some of the things he did/wrote/said kind of raise alarms, if Im honest the whole Servetus Thing, for instance, doesnt make anybody look good however you spin it. And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? I hear the person,"Calvin," discussed more than "Jesus." c) I want to move conversations about abuse beyond the Calvinism discussion because I think its a massive red herring. Yet looking at a book's cover, or even . This would definitely color their opinion. I trust him because I understand his loving nature. Learning as we go, making mistakes but so what, & learning from them. *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. @ Julie Anne: I understand that, and I certainly dont look down on you. I am having trouble keeping up with all the comments between the two. Can I ask you what your views are on RC Sproul and the Ligonier contingent? I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. On a site that deals with domestic abuse, it can very easily for discussion to descend into man hating. There are definitely some clearly Calvinist ideas that I disagree with. The Bible says they are. They simply describe the regular, normal way in which God manages or governs his universe. And if the term is ambiguous, then I its wise to be careful and specific in criticism. For a son to commit suicide? Michael Horton, in For Calvinism, w/ an intro by Roger Olson (a book I will probably keep mentioning, if you dont mind, because it deals with the issues discussed here and on other blogs) even has a chapter on the obnoxious ways of some Calvinists, and how to get past it. But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions. This is not the way toward peace. They are harmed by the teachings they sat under and then accused of misrepresentation when they blog about it. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say. In spite of the current emphasis on Neo-Calvinism, it is still a minority position. Excellent work! The Calvinistas have just put a new spin on how to usurp Gods authority (the Holy Spirit) over the individual believer. Ryrie, Rice, Wesley, WE Vine, Geisler, and RA Torrey come to mind as non-calvinists who I personally find thoughtful, sound theologians who happen to disagree with me on this very fine issue of theology. It was their belief and in my mind, their belief only affects them. Ive learned a lot since then. He was the leading French Protestant reformer and the most important figure in the second generation of the Protestant Reformation. I, for one, *do* understand. God can do that. Some of the resources that have helped me to be a non calvinist are. 1) That article. BTW-Wade Burleson told his church my conversion story which generated a few laughs. Wow! Does not a little yeast leaven the whole batch? 1554-1612), who was trained in theology in a university (Cambridge), and Thomas Helwys (ca. Jesus statement that my food is to do the will of him who sent me applies in our context. And it seems the Neo-Cals operate the opposite way: they view everyone else from a Calvinist lens and themselves through an Arminian one. Right thinking about what God himself teaches us about himself, us, our world, and salvation matters deeply. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Arminian_denominations. Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. Why is Calvin even part of the discussion, period? At the Spiritual Sounding Board blog, in the threads about Calvinism, I saw Cals on occasion contradicting each other. ), but if taken to its logical outcomes, yes, at the end of the day, Cal really does teach X. I Am a Christian - The first reason I'm not a Calvinist is that John Calvin was a man. He does not reject the Gospel, but he does reject predestination as presented by Calvin. One section was exploring happiness. Sort of like reading Cliff Notes instead of the book. But I respect that he does what he does for the same reason I do: we believe that people are at stake, and suffering is the penalty for losing the debate. Why isnt it simple, like the works of John Owen and Jonathan Edwards? So very reasonable. I believe that I am endowed by my Creator with the power to put an end to the vast majority of human misery and suffering in this life It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. They always enter the discussion with the premises well defined; and the cornerstone premise is that you are wrong and they are right. We are human, after all and I think all humans, from the beginning of time, have asked these questions, not just monotheists. Until about 6 years ago, I never, once, had any conflict with those who are Reformed. I will be honest JeffS and JeffB , I am often confused by the moving target that you described before. That is the only argument they have. Calvin is a little deep to get through, not to mention that the language structure is about 500 years old and not written in English. I have read at his site just a little bit and so far have found many of his thoughts very satisfying on all levels. But I can say, knowing what I now know about God, that God would never ever ever have set the evil I suffered in place intentionally. They are the ones who preach and teach and write as if five point "TULIP" Calvinism is part of the gospel itself and anyone who does not believe in it is only "almost Christian" or "Christian,. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. Why? Life is full of uncertainties, and we will never be able to rid our lives of uncertainties, of doubts, of questions. And so, I also agree with Nick on this: To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you.. Might we call what youre describing love? (LogOut/ Demeaning can also occur by passive-aggression, which is the preferred method of the more academic among us. If the answer sometimes doesnt work then weve got more work to do This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world.. But I really, truly want to be done with the Paul! And even if God has blessed them, more often that not, Gods blessing is a resource, not a reward. I will never go back to Calvinism because I cant recall a single moment that I felt any certainty of Gods love for me in that system. There is something that has been horribly misinterpreted in the verse about All things work together for good..etc It has almost created a cult of catastrophe. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. The wonderful commentaries writ-ten by Adam Clarke, Charles Ellicott, and Daniel Whedon, for example, have not been published for years. And really, in the end, if a doctrine about the majesty and greatness of God doesnt comfort traumatized people (among all the needy humans out there), then of what real use is it? And I get better at flying (so to speak). As for being Lutheran, I think people get this confused sometimes as if all Lutherans follow everything Luther wrote. For example onannihilationismhe commented that some evangelical theologians have "resurrected the old polemical labels of heresy and aberrational teaching" in order to marginalize other evangelicals holding the view (The mosaic of Christian belief, 2002). It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? Paul Ellingworth William G. MacDonald James Strauss Philip Towner John Wenham Gary Habermas Nigel Turner Max Turner Peter Cotterell (?) At first, I thought I had missed something in my Christian walk. *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. I dont see Calvinism as the issue, though I know some do. This is also (imo) true for many, many people. (Also, it would mean that God forced people to sin, since some of our thoughts, words, and deeds, are sinful. And as you say, Nick, as soon as we have settled out of shock, we need robust physiotherapy which is psychotherapy or intensive spiritual counseling, and thats hard long work; not a job for babies. Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. Ive been lurking through out this discussion. But the rest of the bad stuff? * Okay, end of sermon. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. I am not promoting Lutheranism as the only place to go. I do think though, there is a difference between a Calvinist and a Calvinista. He embraced Reformed soteriology after initially subscribing to Arminianism. Hunt, Finney, Hyles, and Billy Graham would number in the non (anti)-calvinists that I personally have less respect for. Cheers you on. Ive tried to suss out how a good, all powerful God can exist at the same time as evil, and I just dont have an answer. I believe Sproul when he says that he knows of no Calvinist who, without any difficulty, welcomed what the Bible said about election, etc. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. I guess God can use bad things to lead us to a true knowledge of Him. If you read it,you will most likely have a heart attack. Lets get this person through their crisis and love on them. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? "A missionary is a qualified Christian sent out under the authority of a local church to an area of recognized need in order to pursue the work of the Great Commission." Dark times. Youd be welcome at the table in my wigwam too Jeff. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word.